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A question:

 
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Do you like the idea about professional jury?
Yes, I like the idea. I think the voting will be more fair.
94%
 94%  [ 36 ]
No, I don't want professional jury on this site.
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 38

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Gleb
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: A question: Reply with quote

We want you opinion on one important issue. For a long time we “massaged” the idea that our site needs a group of professional judges. Why? Simply because many artists consider “uneducated” visitors’ votes are not that just (which is, agreeably, true to some extent) and this is why the artists are not that fond of mailing us their works. What we have noticed is when more than 200 votes are collected from random site visitors, the crowd’s verdict is not much different from that of professional judges. I.e., the same pictures would get top 10 high marks, only their order may be slightly changed. Well, this is explainable, after all the people who vote are not simple folks from the street but people who like art and don’t mind spare a minute to vote. Those people may not be professional photography artists but they definitely value the art of photography, they know what to expect, and how to distinguish a great photo from junk. That is the reason that even such amateur judgment is way better than audience help in a TV quiz show. However, in order to dismiss the claims of some photographers, in terms of getting fair marks, we are still required to establish a professional jury in addition to the vote collection from visitors. In other words, the artwork will be assessed both by visitors (and reward offered) and by the jury (another reward offered). If the work receives first place in both voting systems, then two prizes are rewarded. We do have vast experience with such juries. The problem is that from start almost everyone is willing to participate and become a jury member, and then the jury function is slowly diminishing and vanishing in time. Some have no time; others are just too bored, etc. Therefore the jury should not be a permanent entity; it should be altered from frequently, and have an influx of new members, for good. Why so? Let me show the details:
1. For starters, we will send invitation letters to all the artists whoever taken part in the competition and won, asking them to become jury members and to recommend other photography artists who are known for their great work. Also, similar letter will be mailed to photographers who are very much liked by us personally, for their artwork.
2. When we get feedback, we will estimate amount of people who expressed their will to join the jury.
3. Every jury member will be granted a username (known only to him/her). Other photographers won’t know then what jury member gave what mark to a certain picture, and no “revenge” will take place afterwards when other photographers join the jury.
4. At the end of every competition, WE randomly select, say, 15 jury members (out of all jury members); actually, depending upon the jury size, we may select even a 100 people. Then we mail to each of them a letter asking to select 5 pictures from each rewarded competition. These photos they would have to rank on the scale from 5 to 10. Clearly, we can’t give identical marks to different photos, and the photos should be literally ranked. Say, out of 15 (or 100) selected jury members who got the request from us to cast the votes, we get response only from 10 (or 40) people. This is sufficient to evaluate any given picture.
a. One way to draw a conclusion is to sum up, for every picture, marks from all the jury members who voted, and the winner will be declared based on maximum points received.
b. Another approach: the artwork should be all ranked, the pictures receive 10 points for the first place, 9 points – for the second place, etc. Then, say first jury member selected pictures A, B, C, D, and E; second jury member – pictures A, B, C, D, and K. It means work “K” receives 5 points, by default, from the first jury member (it’s not selected at all), when work “E” also gets 5 points from the second jury member. Then averages are calculated, compared, and winner is declared.
5. When all the voting results are acquired, they will be published on a special page, and therefore every jury members will have a chance to verify the fact that his/her contribution is accounted for. And, at the same time, full jury anonymity will be maintained by the special IDs. List of photographers-jury members will also be publicized on one of the pages, so that there won’t be any chance of misconduct by the administration.

Apparently, such novelty requires a good financial support. Because currently we do not have a lot of resources on hand, I suggest establishing 3 + 3 competition categories (instead of 5). In other words, we’ll have 3 competition themes with rewards, but it will be 6 prizes (3 out of each evaluation system). In total, the rewards fund will grow to $900 U.S. a month. When more income is available from advertising sources, we’ll introduce 5 or 6 themes, or even all of them J The more active you are – the more you are visiting the website and casting you votes – the more growth in prize fund is expected. Later, perhaps, we will be able to award prizes every 5 days.

Please give us feedback on this, it is really crucial.
Thank you.


Last edited by Gleb on Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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hotshot
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Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 20
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Jury Reply with quote

I believe you have set out healthy and good criteria to select the best photos. As long as judges voting is definite, not known to the public and not open for discussion the system is fine for me.
It may be a good idea to list the judges with their websites, it gives other viewers a little idea about their backgrounds/tastes and professionalism?
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Gleb
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Jury Reply with quote

hotshot wrote:
I believe you have set out healthy and good criteria to select the best photos. As long as judges voting is definite, not known to the public and not open for discussion the system is fine for me.
It may be a good idea to list the judges with their websites, it gives other viewers a little idea about their backgrounds/tastes and professionalism?

Of course we'll list all judges' websites and the links to their works. All users will see the judges are the Masters. We hope we'll find a lot professionals who will help us.
We'll list all votes of every jury member but everyone will has his own ID and nobody will know the ID's of others :jury members Surprised)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am willing to help. You can put me on the list for judges, being a professional photographer for quite some years.
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hotshot
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Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:56 pm    Post subject: judging Reply with quote

the "guest" reply above was mine, I did not log in Sad apologies
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Dan
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Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 3
Location: usa

PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: A question: Reply with quote

[quote="Gleb"]
Quote:
We want you opinion on one important issue
.

Hi,

I'm very happy to see this discussion taking place. I have been interested Photokonkurs since I first visited. The idea behind your site is great, and will motivate people to create artistic and thought provoking imagery. I think of Photokonkurs, as an international artists' community.

I'm impressed with all the thought you have put into jury formation and the voting criteria. I like the idea of a rotating jury. I can see the need to avoid "jury burnout".

On Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:54 pm Glebe wrote:
> a. One way to draw a conclusion is to sum up, for every picture, marks from all the urb members who voted, and the winner will be declared based on maximum points received<

I like this approach better. It seems simpler and more transparent.

One of the problems I wrestle with each time I vote, is, what criteria should I use to evaluate an image? What do I base the score on? What is the basis for a photo to win? What is Photokonkurs looking for in an image?

When I vote, I consider the following points: Eros, concept, quality of the model, expression, composition, technique, attention to detail, lighting, impact, color and emotion. How much weight should each point be given? What points are important? What are the standards we should use in voting on photos on Photokonkurs? Too many questions?

May I ask a few more questions?

How many users do you have a day, and how many of them vote?
How many photo submissions do you get per day and how many will need to be judged? How many submitted pictures never see the light of day?

I'd also like to know a little bit about Photokonkurs. How many people are involved? What is the motivation behind Photokonkurs?

I am a retired commercial advertising photographer. I ran a successful studio for 20 years before I had to shut it down because of health reasons. I've got some free time, I'd love to help.


dan..

Two more things,
Since the software change, you can only see the voting results after you vote. If you leave the page, you can't get back to the voting results. There are times I want to go back to an image and see how the results have changed.

An easily identifiable link to the forums and other areas of your site would be great. Getting around to other areas of Photokonkurs from http://www.eroticart.ws/photo.htm is not easy.
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Gleb
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: A question: Reply with quote

[quote="Dan"]
Gleb wrote:
Quote:
We want you opinion on one important issue
.

Hi,

I'm very happy to see this discussion taking place. I have been interested Photokonkurs since I first visited. The idea behind your site is great, and will motivate people to create artistic and thought provoking imagery. I think of Photokonkurs, as an international artists' community.

I'm impressed with all the thought you have put into jury formation and the voting criteria. I like the idea of a rotating jury. I can see the need to avoid "jury burnout".

On Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:54 pm Glebe wrote:
> a. One way to draw a conclusion is to sum up, for every picture, marks from all the urb members who voted, and the winner will be declared based on maximum points received<

I like this approach better. It seems simpler and more transparent.

One of the problems I wrestle with each time I vote, is, what criteria should I use to evaluate an image? What do I base the score on? What is the basis for a photo to win? What is Photokonkurs looking for in an image?

When I vote, I consider the following points: Eros, concept, quality of the model, expression, composition, technique, attention to detail, lighting, impact, color and emotion. How much weight should each point be given? What points are important? What are the standards we should use in voting on photos on Photokonkurs? Too many questions?

May I ask a few more questions?

How many users do you have a day, and how many of them vote?
How many photo submissions do you get per day and how many will need to be judged? How many submitted pictures never see the light of day?

I'd also like to know a little bit about Photokonkurs. How many people are involved? What is the motivation behind Photokonkurs?

I am a retired commercial advertising photographer. I ran a successful studio for 20 years before I had to shut it down because of health reasons. I've got some free time, I'd love to help.


dan..

Two more things,
Since the software change, you can only see the voting results after you vote. If you leave the page, you can't get back to the voting results. There are times I want to go back to an image and see how the results have changed.

An easily identifiable link to the forums and other areas of your site would be great. Getting around to other areas of Photokonkurs from http://www.eroticart.ws/photo.htm is not easy.


He-he... so many questions.. I'll try to answer.
The site has 5000-7000 visitors a day. They see 60000-80000 pages with pictures. Every day 20-40 new photographers are adding. We hope we'll have 10000's photographers and 10000's visitors a day after 6-8 months.
The idea behind Photokonkurs is to give to photographers some money from their own action. It means more visitors on our site = more money for advertising = more themes and more money prizes. I think it's a good idea. When we'll see we have a lot of visitors and we see I do the prizes bigger and bihher and we have the same number of visitors we'll take some money for a salary, host, etc. Here the example:
If we do the first prize = $800 (now it is $100) we'll have more photographers and visitors. Right? If we do the first prize $1000 - will we have more visitors than when the prize was $800? I think we will not. So we have no reason to make the prize $1000 instead $800.
Another question - if we'll make the first price $1500 instead $800 - will we have more visitors? Yes, we will. The question is the number of the visitors, the quality of "voting" cheating, etc... So we see many many problems but we'll hope our members like you and "hotshot" will help us Surprised)
"How much weight should each point be given?"
We don't enter into the "weight" of part of votes as you have described but I agree with this::
"When I vote, I consider the following points: Eros, concept, quality of the model, expression, composition, technique, attention to detail, lighting, impact, color and emotion.".
You could think the weight of all votes is the same.
I didn't answer all you questions because I have no time - we are counting results ov previouse votings. We almost have finished.
"How many submitted pictures never see the light of day?" - all submitted pictures placed 24 hours on the first page of each theme so ALL the images see the light of the day Surprised)
Thank you.
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Gleb
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: judging Reply with quote

hotshot wrote:
the "guest" reply above was mine, I did not log in Sad apologies

Do you take a part in the competition? Didn't find your works. Have you a link to your site or works?
Thank you
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gleb, my real name is Robert and I have not created any submissions for your competitions but I do vote on a regular basis. One day I hope to create photos for the competition but at present real paid photography comes first... Very Happy

I do not vote on all submissions, should a judge (evaluator sounds nicer to me..) have to do that?
If you get more submissisions that can become a big task....
cheers
Robert (hotshot)
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Gleb
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Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Gleb, my real name is Robert and I have not created any submissions for your competitions but I do vote on a regular basis. One day I hope to create photos for the competition but at present real paid photography comes first... Very Happy

I do not vote on all submissions, should a judge (evaluator sounds nicer to me..) have to do that?
If you get more submissisions that can become a big task....
cheers
Robert (hotshot)

Hi Robert,
Our jury is "professional jury". We must put a link leading to works near every jury member's name. If you didn't send photos we don't know are you a professional or not. Of course you could not be a professional but your works must be close to professional to be a judge.
Not, a jury members must not vote for all works. They will need choose 5 best works in "prize" themes and give their votes to the works, that's all.
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hotshot
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gleb, my link is here: www.albanystudios.co.nz and I am a professional for a long time.... have a look and see Very Happy
Cheers
Robert
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Gleb
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hotshot wrote:
Hi Gleb, my link is here: www.albanystudios.co.nz and I am a professional for a long time.... have a look and see Very Happy
Cheers
Robert

Hi Robert,
I like it. I will send you an e-mail soon (next week we'll send e-mails to all photographers we want to see in our jury).
Thank you.
Best Regards.
Gleb
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romceb
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Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Paris

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile
Hi,

I am new member (french).
Ideas for jury are interesting. As "guest" (Robert?) said, work opportunities go first($$$). But I will try to participate to the competitions and vote. Being part of the jury may be a litttle early for my experience. You'll judge my pictures first, then we'll see.


SR
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hotshot
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:20 pm    Post subject: vote AND comment ? Reply with quote

Romceb, good to see you participate!
Once you get a feel of it, it can be a good idea to vote and leave a remark or comment with your vote.
Where can I see your pictures - what galleries - do you post under the name "Romceb"?
Cheers
Robert (guest)
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